Notice What Do You Want From "The Tribunal"

[Zwielicht]

The Tribunal is our dispute section.

These are the rules and process that I wrote up for it:

The Tribunal section here on Office Outlaw is a place where you can submit a thread to ask our moderators for help in settling a dispute.

When you start a tribunal thread, please title your thread "Your Username v. Their Username". Don't worry if you forget to do this as a moderator will adjust the thread title for you.

Aside from the title, there are required fields to fill out with each submission:

• A summary of the issue. Just briefly describe what the issue is. There's a 500-character limit applied to the field.
• Has the other party been informed of your intentions to submit a tribunal thread?
• What do you need to consider this dispute as resolved?

If you forget to fill these out, a notice will simply appear letting you know that they need to be filled out before the thread can go into our approval queue.

As for the thread content itself, we don't have a strict format here, just let provide us with any additional information that you feel could help us resolve the issue faster. Just be aware that you should stick the facts and avoid overloading our moderators with hundreds of screenshots as this will only slow down the process.

The Tribunal Process
Our Tribunal Process is quite simple!

1. You submit a thread to The Tribunal, which then goes into our queue.
2. A moderator will review your Tribunal thread. If more information is required, the moderator will send a direct message to you to inquire about this.
3. If enough information is present, a moderator will start a conversation between you, the other party, and the themself.
4. If the issue is resolved, The Tribunal will go into The Tribunal Archive, which only moderators and above have access to.
5. If the other party is unwilling to resolve the case, we will unfortunately have to ban them from Office Outlaw and The Tribunal thread will go live in this section to alert the community.

I didn't really consult with the rest of you on this one, but after talking with @roydan and @Octavia; I thought it was best to get more opinions on how The Tribunal should function.

For example, do you want to see these cases handled live in real time like a certain other place, or would you prefer to just know the outcome of each case?

 

[Spy]

Is it possible to make the comment section of a dispute accessible only to the two users involved? This would help prevent unnecessary comments from others and reduce the need for repeated warnings or removals. Once the dispute is resolved, the admin could reopen the comment section for public discussion, if required.

As we all know, the marketplace will be most impacted by users offering medium to high-cost services or products. Can we address this from day one? with something like, OO being the middlemen?

 

[roydan]

There are a few aspects as for what's covered under the Tribunal.
Would a deal over TG be accepted as a source to open a thread? If yes, under which conditions?

These requirements need to be stated and consistent across different areas in the trading post, otherwise they become abusable.
They also needs to be clarified in the terms and conditions of the forum to protect the forum from legal claims and chargebacks.

 

[Zwielicht]

Is it possible to make the comment section of a dispute accessible only to the two users involved? This would help prevent unnecessary comments from others and reduce the need for repeated warnings or removals. Once the dispute is resolved, the admin could reopen the comment section for public discussion, if required.

As we all know, the marketplace will be most impacted by users offering medium to high-cost services or products. Can we address this from day one? with something like, OO being the middlemen?

Technically, I could do that by making a Tribunal usergroup and putting the users into it so that only they could respond, but that's a little tedious and would involve an admin every time. Also, it would mean only those in that usergroup could respond in the entire section. I'll look into this, though.

The are legal issues surrounding us holding the money and acting as an escrow, but I have been thinking about what can be done about this because it is an issue elsewhere that I want to address. I considered requiring that vendors use a known escrow for high-cost services on this platform as that seems like a feasible requirement to have. I'm not sure if I'm missing anything with having that in as a requirement, though.

There are a few aspects as for what's covered under the Tribunal.
Would a deal over TG be accepted as a source to open a thread? If yes, under which conditions?

These requirements need to be stated and consistent across different areas in the trading post, otherwise they become abusable.
They also needs to be clarified in the terms and conditions of the forum to protect the forum from legal claims and chargebacks.

You make a very good point about the TOS. We'll add something in today.

Even though TG deals can be difficult to resolve, I've handled those kind of disputes before that "rule clarification" came about on the other forum. I feel like The Tribunal should be open to all cases that involve a member of the forum so we don't run into any issues where people use Telegram as a loophole to scam and get away with it. Also, if someone on our platform is scamming, it would be better to address the issue than to just say, "No, it happened on Telegram, won't look into it". I know it's extra work, of course, but I feel like it's worth it to keep this community safe.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[Yes]

I think we need to include deals initiated off-forum too, as long as there’s enough proof.

 

[Spy]

The are legal issues surrounding us holding the money and acting as an escrow, but I have been thinking about what can be done about this because it is an issue elsewhere that I want to address. I considered requiring that vendors use a known escrow for high-cost services on this platform as that seems like a feasible requirement to have. I'm not sure if I'm missing anything with having that in as a requirement, though.

You could consider implementing something like this:

Users can have two options. Either they pay directly for a service or product, or they add funds to their OO account. For example, they could preload fixed amounts like $100, $200, or $300, which they can then use in the marketplace.

I’m not sure how viable this would be technically, but I just wanted to share the idea in case it helps with planning future features.

 

[roydan]

While I agree that we should aspire to be as scammer free as possible, it sounds like a procedural nightmare to need to take care of deals and to ban members for reasons that has nothing or very little to do with the forum.

 

[Spy]

You make a very good point about the TOS. We'll add something in today.

Even though TG deals can be difficult to resolve, I've handled those kind of disputes before that "rule clarification" came about on the other forum. I feel like The Tribunal should be open to all cases that involve a member of the forum so we don't run into any issues where people use Telegram as a loophole to scam and get away with it. Also, if someone on our platform is scamming, it would be better to address the issue than to just say, "No, it happened on Telegram, won't look into it". I know it's extra work, of course, but I feel like it's worth it to keep this community safe.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

One thing I’d like to add here is that if someone scams another user on Telegram, they can delete the chat for both parties. This means there would be no proof left unless screenshots were taken beforehand. Even then, screenshots can be forged.

Maybe it's worth considering using a different messenger app where chats can't be deleted for both users, or at least where message history is more secure.

 

[Zwielicht]

I think we need to include deals initiated off-forum too, as long as there’s enough proof.

Those are included already, but I can make that part clearer in the rules.

You could consider implementing something like this:

Users can have two options. Either they pay directly for a service or product, or they add funds to their OO account. For example, they could preload fixed amounts like $100, $200, or $300, which they can then use in the marketplace.

I’m not sure how viable this would be technically, but I just wanted to share the idea in case it helps with planning future features.

At these early stages, I don’t know how feasible it is to load credits or something on to OO. There might be an add-on for it from what I remember, but I’ll have to look into that later today.

While I agree that we should aspire to be as scammer free as possible, it sounds like a procedural nightmare to need to take care of deals and to ban members for reasons that has nothing or very little to do with the forum.

Yeah, that is the tough part about that. I mean, imagine some brand new account just being created to open a Tribunal thread against a member. That was one of those situations I thought about when I wrote up this process and decided against handling it live, just in case someone tried doing that to their competitor.

I’ve considered some sort of a compromise that fleshes out that rule more, but I’ll share more on that in this thread a bit later when I’m back online.

One thing I’d like to add here is that if someone scams another user on Telegram, they can delete the chat for both parties. This means there would be no proof left unless screenshots were taken beforehand. Even then, screenshots can be forged.

Maybe it's worth considering using a different messenger app where chats can't be deleted for both users, or at least where message history is more secure.

That was a problem on the other forum as well; it’s why I struggled so much with those TG disputes. Discouraging Telegram just for business was one thing I considered, although some could say outright banning it in The Trading Post should be considered as well. It would still be allowed on the rest of the forum, just not for sales threads.

 

[roydan]

That was a problem on the other forum as well; it’s why I struggled so much with those TG disputes. Discouraging Telegram just for business was one thing I considered, although some could say outright banning it in The Trading Post should be considered as well. It would still be allowed on the rest of the forum, just not for sales threads.

In that case we'll need to remove it from profiles as well, as it's unrealistic to expect a new member to know where TG is applicable and where it isn't or what they can or can't discuss over TG.
Imagine, for example, that I'm talking to someone over TG because we get along, nothing business related. Then they open a marketplace thread, so I'm expected to have 2 different lines of communication with them just to be protected.

I understand that people can talk to each other wherever they wish, but the way it is now, TG has a 'stamp of approval' from the forum and I think it's confusing to add an asterisk to it.

 

[Octavia]

To be honest having an open thread(public) allows other people to also be heard in the same dispute case rather than opening a new one against the same seller. Or close their Marketplace Thread with the Message " there is currently a dispute open regarding this service, If you have the same problem send a message to dispute@officeoutlaw.com or DM @dispute."

After it's handled I would just close the thread and archive it. Since on the other forum it is kinda a troll/shitshow when a dispute has been "resolved".